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#1 2010-06-19 07:13:08

News Bot
Member

News: NA Division Update

Effective immediately, the North American division is ceasing operations and going on indefinite hiatus. Because of various internal and external circumstances, it is no longer feasible to run the division smoothly. Death will be removed as Admin, all clans will be set as inactive, and the schedule will be removed. Thanks to all the players for making over 250 matches possible in BG2's North American division.

The European Division will remain unaffected and continue operations normally.

Posted by: Slash
Source: http://www.battlegroundsleague.com/news.php

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#2 2010-06-19 14:21:34

TIEdup14
Member

Re: News: NA Division Update

What complete and utter horse shit.

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#3 2010-06-19 14:26:07

Sauce
Member

Re: News: NA Division Update

You can always join the new league tie.

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#4 2010-06-19 17:26:58

Kieth
Member

Re: News: NA Division Update

lolbg2

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#5 2010-06-19 18:33:26

Codename:V
Member

Re: News: NA Division Update

It's about damn time IMHO. I do give props to Slash/Death for running a good league in the past. I'm pretty sure this needed to be done for about 3 months(maybe more) now though. I will miss cheating every Sunday night. <3

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#6 2010-06-19 18:38:54

TIEdup14
Member

Re: News: NA Division Update

A league where VAC bans, cheating, and exploits are not only allowed, but encouraged-- no thanks.

Last edited by TIEdup14 (2010-06-19 18:39:57)

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#7 2010-06-19 18:44:10

Slash
BGL Head Admin

Re: News: NA Division Update

Before anyone asks- I do not have any time nor interest in running the NA division and no, you cannot be the new admin.

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#8 2010-06-19 18:59:37

Sauce
Member

Re: News: NA Division Update

TIEdup14 wrote:

A league where VAC bans, cheating, and exploits are not only allowed, but encouraged-- no thanks.


You would fit right in, tell copywrite to come. But any thing is better then having an admin where some one is whispering into his hear. Not to say that the only team who isn't effected by the rules is the team the admin is on.

But yeah come over, bring the 150 players you speak for.


@Slash, understood. Takes a toll on you after a while, good luck.

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#9 2010-06-19 20:30:46

Danihel
Member

Re: News: NA Division Update

Before anyone asks- I do not have any time nor interest in running the NA division and no, you cannot be the new admin.

After this week, wat division? Amirite!?!?!?

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#10 2010-06-19 20:31:23

Duncan
Member

Re: News: NA Division Update

Danihel wrote:

Before anyone asks- I do not have any time nor interest in running the NA division and no, you cannot be the new admin.

After this week, wat division? Amirite!?!?!?

xD

also sup slash

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#11 2010-06-20 01:18:57

Kieth
Member

Re: News: NA Division Update

Time to go fuck up the eu league I guess

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#12 2010-06-20 07:19:38

hairypotter
Member

Re: News: NA Division Update

TIEdup14 wrote:

You should just go away and form your own league.  That would make me very happy.  Then you wont have anything to bitch about!

Eh heh heh.

Last edited by hairypotter (2010-06-20 07:20:11)

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#13 2010-06-20 12:50:28

Death
Former Admin

Re: News: NA Division Update

hairypotter wrote:
TIEdup14 wrote:

You should just go away and form your own league.  That would make me very happy.  Then you wont have anything to bitch about!

Eh heh heh.


Bad thing is its run BY mostly AP clan, and Dev team members. I scanned there new website and found security risk, unlike slashes site. My understanding is they threw out the VAC banned rule. OMG that opens the door. I see the famous Duncan has been playing all the time. It was posted there not the internet police, lol because there are all corrupt who is running it.
No wonder valve wants nothing to do with the mod.

Last edited by Death (2010-06-20 12:51:05)


How will History Remember You

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#14 2010-06-20 15:20:41

pulu
Member

Re: News: NA Division Update

it wont take long that bgl-eu goes down also.

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#15 2010-06-20 16:31:00

crymore
Member

Re: News: NA Division Update

honestly im sad to see it go, my favorite part of sunday was playing bgl now im just gunna be bored and waiting to go to work on mondayz....but w/e

inform me of a new league. id like to join and get it started promptly .

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#16 2010-06-21 03:30:57

Codename:V
Member

Re: News: NA Division Update

Death wrote:

Bad thing is its run BY mostly AP clan, and Dev team members. I scanned there new website and found security risk, unlike slashes site. My understanding is they threw out the VAC banned rule. OMG that opens the door. I see the famous Duncan has been playing all the time. It was posted there not the internet police, lol because there are all corrupt who is running it.
No wonder valve wants nothing to do with the mod.

First of all the VAC ban rule never meant anything. VAC banned players were playing all along and NOT cheating and you people had no clue about it. Clearly it's not about cheating, it's about personal vendettas. Second of all corrupt people running it? All I have to say to that is L O FUCKING L. Look in the mirror.

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#17 2010-06-21 03:57:42

Ad-Man
Member

Re: News: NA Division Update

Yeah, Agent and the big five are actually working for AoC.

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#18 2010-06-21 04:03:40

Slash
BGL Head Admin

Re: News: NA Division Update

Codename:V wrote:
Death wrote:

Bad thing is its run BY mostly AP clan, and Dev team members. I scanned there new website and found security risk, unlike slashes site. My understanding is they threw out the VAC banned rule. OMG that opens the door. I see the famous Duncan has been playing all the time. It was posted there not the internet police, lol because there are all corrupt who is running it.
No wonder valve wants nothing to do with the mod.

First of all the VAC ban rule never meant anything. VAC banned players were playing all along and NOT cheating and you people had no clue about it. Clearly it's not about cheating, it's about personal vendettas. Second of all corrupt people running it? All I have to say to that is L O FUCKING L. Look in the mirror.

VAC bans aren't about cheating? VAC bans are exactly about cheating. Players got caught cheating. In what game? Who's to say? But considering how lightly they take Battle Grounds, it wouldn't surprise me if they got caught by VAC while playing BG.

The "VAC ban rule", as you call it, was in place long before Death had any power in BGL. In fact, it came from a time when he would regularly complain and harass me about how "unfair" I was as an admin. Quoting the rules:

Any player caught hacking in any game, in or out of a match is considered a cheater and is not welcome in the BGL. This means any player hacking on a public server, hacking during a private clan practice, banned from another non-BG league, or hacking in a different game entirely is automatically banned from the BGL. Cheaters are not welcome in the BGL.

This rule was made long before the public had any knowledge of VAC bans. It's a simple concept. The internet is a very anonymous place, and there is very, very little trust. You don't really know who you are talking to half the time, or what their intentions are. You have to give them the benefit of the doubt for the most part. However, when we find some concrete information that you are untrustworthy in some relevant case (like, cheating in an online video game), that trust is violated.

In BGL's (mine and Hachiman's opinion) case, you permanently destroyed that trust. Some may support a limited ban, a probation system, or some other method to restore that trust. In Battle Ground's situation, the community is too volatile, and the amount of time and resources too few to enforce these systems. There are too few long-standing, trustable members as a foundation in this community to truly enforce an alternative system. This league's position was to permanently remove those people to take them out of the equation, for the sake of the "clean" members.

You say that these VAC banned players weren't cheating in matches- How do you know? Do you trust that they aren't? Some cheats are made to be mostly undetectable, even in a LAN situation. Do you expect me to have a 5 minute conversation with a VAC banned player and say "hmm, that person seems pretty trustworthy, I guess they can play"? That's not going to happen. And as stated above, any other more rigorous method is too time consuming for such a small community to enforce.

This approach is not entirely unreasonable. Valve takes the same stance. Once you are VAC banned, there is no removal. It doesn't matter if you were 14 and a moron. It doesn't matter if you cleaned up your act. It doesn't matter if it was "just" in Counter-Strike and you don't care about that, but you really care about Battle Grounds. You are perma-banned. The only difference is that they do not attempt to research new accounts and tie them to existing ones. Probably because it is potentially error-prone and time consuming. Errors when making the link could get them sued, especially since money is involved.

In regards to the specific BGL bans, it is very time consuming to research all possible sources and finding connections between SteamID's and players. Most bans were because of tip-offs from players in the community. If that was vendetta-fueled, I am in no position to confirm or deny that. I only acted on the evidence and banned in accordance with the rules. I don't have any sophisticated systems to automatically figure out what accounts are associated with what players. If I did, I am guessing there would be a lot more bans, a long time ago.

Saying VAC bans are irrelevant is quite a bit off base. Most of the bans are from HL1 or HL2 games, which is very relevant. It could have occurred during a BGL match, or not- but in my opinion, it's a trust issue. I don't have the resources to run a BG Anti-Cheat Team, so I can only perma-ban them to protect the clean players.

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#19 2010-06-21 10:19:11

Ad-Man
Member

Re: News: NA Division Update

Hacks in bg are either useless or obvious.

Aimbot - useless.
wallhack - obvious and useless.
speedhack - obvious and useless.

Also there are no hacks for BG2 except a material wall hack, the sourcemod speedhack and generic speedhacks.

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#20 2010-06-21 11:29:53

QwErTy
Member

Re: News: NA Division Update

so they exist !

well said Slash, you're absolutely right in this matter

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#21 2010-06-21 13:11:35

Ad-Man
Member

Re: News: NA Division Update

Well, the only BG2 specific one was the material wall hack which probably doesn't work with 2.0.

The sourcemod one is an exploit, which actually raises a very interesting point, why should some exploits result in a ban and others in a suspension?  I see a lot of speed hack bans in the ban list, I wasn't around then but I am guessing the majority of them were not speed hacking in BGL matches.  However I do know that players who have exploited in BGL matches are not banned (door blocking).

So why are non-bgl exploiters banned but bgl ones not?

Also I have cheated playing monopoly on many occasions, by the same logic I should be banned from the BGL.

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#22 2010-06-21 13:33:39

bubbles
Member

Re: News: NA Division Update

My 20 pence worth:

Slash is totally correct. In fact, I don't understand why he deems it necessary to explain himself.

It's standard in every competitive league (both in real life and on the net), cheating results with suspension.

To Ad-man - On the battlegroundsleague.com rules page there is a quite obvious distinction between cheating and exploitation. I'm uncertain as to whether your brought this to the admins attention at the time, but having played in the NA division for a considerable amount of time, I'm sure Slash would have made some action, providing you had the proper evidence.

I guess if you provide proof that you have cheating in Monopoly....

....

....

Jesus Christ, are you serious?




At the end of the day, you only have yourselves to blame. Certain people from the NA division have ruined this league for players that just wanted to concentrate on playing and not childish bickering. Never thought I would have seen the day when the Battlegrounds League was comparable to Counter Strike in terms of dickhead:nice people ratio in the community.

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#23 2010-06-21 13:49:21

Slash
BGL Head Admin

Re: News: NA Division Update

Ad-Man wrote:

Hacks in bg are either useless or obvious.

Aimbot - useless.
wallhack - obvious and useless.
speedhack - obvious and useless.

Also there are no hacks for BG2 except a material wall hack, the sourcemod speedhack and generic speedhacks.

An aimbot is very useful in melee and is not obvious unless the hacker is careless. A wallhack is useful in any game- assuming the map has walls. And again, it's not obvious unless the hacker is staring directly at people through walls the whole time.

Ad-Man wrote:

The sourcemod one is an exploit, which actually raises a very interesting point, why should some exploits result in a ban and others in a suspension?  I see a lot of speed hack bans in the ban list, I wasn't around then but I am guessing the majority of them were not speed hacking in BGL matches.  However I do know that players who have exploited in BGL matches are not banned (door blocking).

The difference is the distinction between a hack and an exploit. A hack is using external software to break the engine in your favour. An exploit is usually taking advantage of some gameplay or map oversight, which was not intended by the original authors- They are usually open to interpretation. An aimbot is a hack and door blocking, or running up a steep incline that wasn't intended by the author of the map could be exploits. In many Quake-based games, bunny hopping was never intended by the people who wrote the movement code, and some people consider it an exploit, however the technique is accepted as a legitimate technique by most competitive communities. There may be some overlap, like you point out. If it's possible to replace materials and essentially get a wallhack, then that's not using any external software or code to achieve it, but I believe it is just as severe as one that does. As far as I know VAC only bans for hacks, not exploits.

Do you think someone door blocking is the same severity as someone using an aimbot? To me, they are two completely different things. Some may question whether or not door blocking is really an exploit (maybe the mappers should account for it?) and you may also have a hard time proving a small infraction was on purpose or not. Loading custom .dll's to slide your aim to the head and fire for you (or alt-fire) with perfect accuracy as soon as you are in melee range, is a whole other story, and can obviously be considered a hack.

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#24 2010-06-21 13:53:05

Slash
BGL Head Admin

Re: News: NA Division Update

Also, the speedhacks on the ban page were known hackers from other games I used to test out the ban page initially. As far as I know, those people didn't speedhack in BG, but the speedhacks were hack dll's, not gameplay exploits. Since known bans (VAC) are public- and the BGL site checks to make sure new player's aren't banned- it's somewhat redundant to have them on the list at this point, but that's another matter.

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#25 2010-06-21 13:57:31

Sauce
Member

Re: News: NA Division Update

Slash wrote:

Also, the speedhacks on the ban page were known hackers from other games I used to test out the ban page initially. As far as I know, those people didn't speedhack in BG, but the speedhacks were hack dll's, not gameplay exploits. Since known bans (VAC) are public- and the BGL site checks to make sure new player's aren't banned- it's somewhat redundant to have them on the list at this point, but that's another matter.


Seen that one before.

Also slash, you should be an admin, think of the google ads!

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